Ah, but you mistook my meaning. The beams are part of the tower's workings, to be sure, and even it's foundation structure. (holding it up) but i do not feel that the beams emanate from the tower. I don't see why Gan would need to create a tower to issue something, especially something so easily destroyed (fragile). the beams only represent the guardians, and who knows, maybe THAT notion was by human design, they named the beams, not Gan, they named the guardians, not Gan.So that's about it on that.

and no, the tet's job was to attempt to change Roland, to pacify the fire he contains. Look at what they represent, Sussanah, Dean (Susan Delgado) Eddie (Cuthbert) Jake (Alaine) people that affected Roland in profound ways. What was his old Ka-tet about, not WHAT THEY SAID it was about, what was it, as far as reality is concerned, all about. If it was to reach the tower, then why did they fall at Gilead?
Why did Roland lose the horn? No, Roland's duty (and by extension, his Ka-tet's) was to find their peace, saving the beams was the only way they could preserve the peace they all wished for. You can't have peace without existence (maybe you can?)but for the purpose at hand…I think their fate was to help each other, the beams were just there, i don't think that this was their destiny, nor was it their purpose, but father Gan uses those most broken to do his bidding (i think that is verbatim) and so they did what they did. Another piece to support this idea, why did only Eddie die at Blue Heaven? Why not them all, especially if they had achieved their fate? Why did Jake die in the manner he did, why did Susannah follow Roland as far as she did, if they had already reached their destiny? No it was about renewal, sacrifice and hard won answers. Stopping the Crimson King and saving all of creation, yes, but more importantly, it was about the journey and all the events that it brought about for our wayward adventurers. Moving on.

Why couldn't there be more than one? What if the tower is dimensional, and manifests in 13 different realities? Is it really so far fetched to see this story played out across 13 different dimensions/realities? How do you see the gates of the Green castle then, different species in 13 different pipes, all revolving around the castle. what is your take on that? What if each glass contains another reality? There is evidence of the pink one doing so, and black 13 may hold the Hell for them all. Maybe Roland is within the white glass, and thats why he must fight the King.
How do we know? I'm only making calculated guesses and theories, only SK knows these answers (and maybe not even he does)

I too agree that the tale is and epic masterwork of good vs. evil, but it also blurs that line, and his quest is just that. but more so, (my feelings and personal readings now) it is about confrontation, learning about the evil and good we are all capable of. But more so, it is about our stupidity towards things, Roland is (and i quote) 'Stupidly devoted to the tower' Wearing blinders, one-track mind, you name it. but no, i believe that his quest represents what we must do to transcend all that, after all, if he can reach for an object of supernatural solace, why can't we?

Good tidings, fellows

Camuss111

Out of curiosity.. which book is your favorite and why? There is a major love/hate battle going on with the wizard and glass book and I honestly loved that book for several different reasons which I will get into later if u r interested.. but I would have to say that book 7 is my favorite of the series. only because it was so powerful, well at least it effected me powerfully. with the earlier books I laughed out loud, shook my head with incomprehension hated characters, chewed my fingernails in anticipation, cowered in fear for the tet and cried..but with book 7, i did all of that and more..to this day I still can not tell u if I loved or hate this book and that is why it is my favorite.

These stories have been with me a long time and I was excited as anyone at the idea of them being put to film..then JJ opted out and I thought it was over.. but now I read that Ron Howard and his team have now been given the rights to make this epic tale a reality and I don;t know how I feel about that. He has done a great job with several of his films but I still see him as the "gosh, Pa!" Opie shame on me right? But what do u all think of him doing the DT Movies??

I'm not sure that's a fair assessment..if we're talking about what's more popular and what's been around the longest.. look at tolken's lord of the rings.. it took 50 years to get it put to film and it was a massive success. I think the biggest factor here is the shoddy reputation of sai kings past film and tv adaptions. Desperation, IT, Sleepwalkers, dreamcatcher, the graveyard shift, the dead zone, christine.. all horrible adaptions of the books. whether it was the fault of the directors/screenwriters or the fact that sai king had a hand in them, I don't know, but it does not bode well for the attempt at his greatest written work.

Yes, it has been a long time… I thought I had scared you off! lol
But welcome back to the debate. I'm sure I am not the only one who has missed your antagonistic views as they make for a lively discussion.

As to whether or not you are in contention with me, I really do hope so, this would be utterly boring without a little debate! :)

Now as to the rest of your coment;
Instead of debating the finer points with you, I would like to ask you some questions about your latest theories in hopes you may enlighten me to the workings of your most remarkable brain. I am not being facetious, I truly am curious.

Why is it that you do not believe that the beams are attached to the tower? what was it in your reading of the series that led you to that belief? and more to the point, if the beams do not support the tower what was the point of the Rolands obsession and the tet's ultimate fate if not to save the beams therefore saving the tower?

I agree that there different levels of the tower and the variety of worlds that Roland and his tet travel through verify that. But you completely lost me with the theory of 13 different Rolands and 13 different towers. I always felt the wizzard's glass represented the beams of THE tower. you know, one glass for each guardian, and the 13th, the black glass, represented the crimson king.

finally as to your last paradox when you state that Roland is not ever meant to get it right, well.. I've been pondering that concept myself, but I don't know that it because of "sick devotion" that you claim.
I am going to go theological(?) on you for a minute ok? so brace yourself…

I always felt that the DT series was an epic tale of good vs evil, white over red, etc. much like our own history..on one hand you have the constant war, bigotry, racism, and prejudices that have plagued humanity since time out of mind. on the other you have the "good" side of humanity that reaches out to those in need and are ever batteling to change the negative side of our nature, a constant, viscous circle.

now, here's the "theological" part(if that's the word I want)
What if Roland's quest is simply a reflection of us, Humanities battle between good and bad, right and wrong, temptation of what is right vs what is easy.

The Crimson King reflects all of humanities bitter ugliness.

Roland reflects humanities weakness, stubborness, pride and determination. the desire to want to do / to be better, but unable to know how.

Eddy, Susannah and Jake represent everything good and right about humanity. Eddy, our sarcastic,dark humor. Susannah, our duality in nature and Jake our unknown innocence and purity.

So the next question I pose is this: what if Roland can't get it right untill we do? what if they are all fated to repeat this tragic quest, damned to the eternal suffering, repeated deaths and the obscure knowledge they have done it all before..
What if Roland can't learn to better himself untill humanity can learn to accept our differences, see the beauty in those differences and find a way to live together in peace and find that balance for ourselves?

Long time, eh?

about your last post, I believe that the stretchability of Roland and his world is open wider than most stories i've ever read. And to be clear, i am assuming that you mean 'i take contention with your ideas' if not so, i apologize for this post.

I believe that Roland is never meant to reach the tower, the Crimson King (to me) is the incarnation of the Tower's will. Roland is meant to heal the beams, he is meant to destroy the Crimson King's army, that is all. The Tower is temptation, longing, a medicine he feels he NEED obtain. But in reality all he truly needs is the Ka-tet. Their companionship is really what matters. He CAN get to the tower, and does, so he is eternally cast back to relive his fate.

There is a paradox, Roland is too stubborn to quit his journey, and he is too cold to change his goal. He will never settle for a peaceful life, even good'ol Randall says the same thing. He can't, Roland is not good, although he may be the representative of it. His ka mates are the good ones, they are cured of it all by their dinh, and as a result become the balancing good that Roland needs to change again.

I would argue that the reason they all die is due to the Tower's will. Roland is it's eternal slave, and so he is the only one it wants. They all die because the Tower kills them. (note; i do not believe the beams are a part of the tower, only that they flow through it.) it needs to kill them so that it can have Roland all to itself, and here is the second paradox.

The tower is not the end all be all, it is merely part of something greater, something larger than imagining, Gan resides at the top of this tower, but maybe it is only and extension of Gan, maybe this tower is only one of many, colors coinciding with the wizard's glasses (black 13)

maybe Roland is not the last gunslinger, maybe he is the last of his WORLD, what if there are others out there, others following the same quest, reaching the same towers (of varying colors and names) at the same time, what if there is an emerald King, or a Sapphire one, what if there are multiple Roland's across the expanses of universes and we are only allowed to follow one.

either way, the paradox remains, Roland will never be satisfied, he will always chase this dream, I personally don't think he will ever get it right, i think he will always act the same, always lose the things that would have cured him of his sick devotion. he will never get it right because he is not meant to.

answers, questions? Vannay is gone.

Camuss111

When i say that roland is never meant to reach the tower, i mean that he is not meant to achieve his peace. In my mind, Roland is a traveler that HAS to exist for the universes to continue turning. What i mean is that he is the sacrifice, the continued quester for everything else. Without him, there is no tower, without the tower there is no Roland Deschain, nor Mordred nor Randy Flagg. Roland is doomed to continue his quest forever, renewing the beginning threads when the worlds become out of balance again and again. He has to break the cycle, has to make the decision to quit the quest (which he will never do.) so he is eternally caught in the quest, retracing his steps for all eternity. All the tower has to do is call him. He does command the tower to open to him, and that is interesting in its own right; and to a certain degree, i agree that this is hubris of the highest level. But it is not what dooms him, his MIND and Doggedness do this. Roland is the medicine that the Dark Tower can not quit, he is the placebo that drives the wheel of ka onward. I think that he has already obtained the Horn of Eld before, losing it time and time again with his memories. He has already experienced Eddie's sudden frailty and Oy's golden, firelit i-know-i'll-die stare. He forgets it all, he MUST forget it all, for he needs to continue his quest eternally or existence will cease. He has a choice, but truly, he has a false one, the universes have chosen him and him alone to suffer for existence, for lives he cares nothing about. He will always drag the same members back, Susannah, Jake and Eddie will always end up the same way, Oy will always die and Mordred will always be a-hungry for the white daddy. The Crimson King will always go insane and shove the spoon down his throat and he will always be destroyed by Patrick. Gan will always return Roland to the desert, and the man in black will always flee. Roland will forever travel this quest, he is eternal, leaving the same despair and misery, blood and joy that follow his tracks like a faithful dog.

In short, Roland is KA incarnate.

Camuss111

Real quick- my cast- I always make this stupid mistake- gasher…I said cain marco who is jaugarnat from xmen. Jaggaurnats real name (in the comics) is cain marco…he's played by vinny jones (pretty sure that's his name).

And- I think roland saving the beam restored the health of the tower (best word I cld come up w) and maybe he didn't need to kill the crimson king- but roland killed him beleiving it was neccesary to align the balance between good n evil. But iafter thinking about it, you cld b right…but it feels more like a situation that wouldn't have made a dif if he did or didnt . Like if he left the crimson king alive and then exited the scene it wldnt have been like a punishable offence in the eyes of the tower (as entering the tower was).
And the only reason I think Roland had to sing their names is bc he promised so many people- including himself- that he wld. And I also feel that after all the sacrifice R made, going to actually lay his eyes on the tower was just a matter of fairness. He went thru so much turmoil his whole life- ALL his lives it seemed- for the dark tower…I'm sure that Gan wld be cool w R just looking at it!

N I'm w u on the crimson king- CORNY!- I like that he's destroyed and just his eyeballs are left for all eternity, but he just didn't portray the terror he actually is. I thought he was more creepy in insomnia as a big flying catfish in a rocking chair. But if and when you reread it- picture d'nofrio from the cell…bc that dude is creepy. Apply that image nd it might work better for you. Especially the scene where he's hopping up and down in a very infantile way!

And! C'mon now! What's the last thing jake said to roland b4 he let him drop? Go then, there are other worlds than these. He and eddie were just still living in another world- and a brothers (which was so frickin awesome). And I think the reason the gun was like that was to indicate that now that they r in this new world- their hardcore gunslinging days are over. I know it sounds lame…but I wish they would find there OWN way to the tower and just like hide behind it and just as rolands about to walk thru the door they jump out and say "dnt do it roland! U'll totally screw yourself if you actually stepped thru that door? What the heck makes you think your supposed to reach the top anyway?!just bc its the only thing in ur life ur curious about?!"

I'll tell u 1 more thing tho… you know right b4 roland starts walking up to go in the tower- how stephen king totally messes w u and says he's not gonna tell u what's in the tower? He gives you this song n dance about how if we REALLY want to know what's in the tower we shd learn that the real pleasure is in the journey not the arrival- well I took 7 to work w me to finish it. Cripes after almost what? 30 years of waiting – I'm sure I'm wasn't the only 1- but when I read that I went BALLISTIC! I was so furious! I threw an actual fit in my office! I threw the book- I was yelling- my assistant came in and said "what happened?" Well boy o boy did she lose a lot of authoritative respect for me that day. I just flipped out! I was like "I've been waiting 30 years to find out what's at the top of the tower and kings not gonna tell me! Nfw!" Well she picked up the book for me, flipped thru the pages and sd "well I don't think you finished the book yet". It was so embarrassing- but that's when I realized that stephen king didn't owe me anything- he clda left it like that and then roland wldve lived (at least in our head) and that the tower doesn't owe roland anything either. He put things right for the tower and continued existence is his payback. He wants to see what the tower looks like w his own eyes? By all means- have a looksy as long as ud like. But if you really want to see what's inside here you'll regret it forever. So to me- its kinda like sk did to all of us what the tower did to roland. We all clda shut the book when he told us too and we all wld just assume he saved the day and that he and he alone got to see the inside the tower…but we didn't! We turned that page and read what happened bc WE wanted to know what was in the dt- especially the top! And now we are all heartbroken for him -having to tredge thru his life over and over!

Its crazy to me to think that we had a chance to NOT know just how devestating rolands existence really is…cripes- we thought he had it bad thru just those 7 books! Now imagine there's 7000 sets of those 7 books- and its just roland having to do a new set of books, or new miserable life over and over! That's SO morbid! Smtimes I wish my secretary had just left it on the floor and I put it on a shelf w/o knowing how it really ended! Its like if I had just left it alone, roland wldve had happily ever after!

Loved your question

And how eddie susanah and jake found their way together again in some parrallel when. Do u really think those 3 gunslingers will find happiness and contentment in a world like new york- WITHOUT their ka-mate?

I wondered about that too, because they stated in the books that if one dies in the keystone world, they stay dead, that's why they had to risk everything to save stephen king from the accident, because if he died their story could not be sung and all of the worlds would be lost. Since Jake dies saving SK, in the keystone world, how is it that he ends up with Eddy and Susannah in New York? Eddie I could believe because of where he died and Susannah was fated to go..

a part of me cried with joy when I read that Jake was alive and well because he deserved his happiness possibly more than the others and i I hated that he had to die not once but twice..they all deserve their happiness together, but in a way i doubt they will be drawn again because of what happened to Rolands gun when Susannah went through the door. If you remember is was old and rusted and looked as though it would never fire again so she threw it away. Rolands guns had always gone through on the other worlds. He took them through the door for the shoot out at Balazzar's, Eddy took one with him to save Calvin Tower, the fact that it was useless to Susannah when she went through her door may indicate that they can and will be happy together in their when. Perhaps in time if Ka allows Roland may join them in their when

Thanks for your response and your choices in actors is refreshing, a saw several names that have not been posted yet. I'm not sure if you know.. but JJ backed out of the tower films so unless it is opted by someone else i don;t think there will be a dark tower movie….sigh..

in response to your comment, I hold to my contention that Roland is not meant to reach the tower. There really is no need for him to. He already saved the tower when he saved the beam. I can see why you feel that calling out the name of those who died is important, and it is a very emotional scene, and one I can not help but cry over. but it is not necessary for Roland to do that. The roses have been singing all of their names since before memory.
again Roland does not need to kill the Crimson King, he has already destroyed his physical self and is, like you say, already trapped there, and imo, and is no longer a threat to the worlds.

The Crimson king..ugh.. this is one character i just do not get at all. I mean, when I read these books, I can see all of them in my mind. I can laugh and cry with them, I can smell the dirt of the trail everything is so vivid with the tet… but with the crimson king, I'm blank, its like an abyss in my mind and it is so frustrating. the Crimson king is the catalyst for all of this.. the reason Roland became the man he is, the reason the beams are failing, the reason that jake, eddie and susannah are drawn.. the sorce of everything, yet its like he is tabooed, there is hardly a mention of him anywhere, no resoning behind his madness. there is nothing to explain the WHY of him.. Just the absolute fear his name invokes..do you know what I mean?

Do you know what really gets me? at the end when you finally get to
"see" the crimson king, the portrayal of him is so infintile, petty and weak, you're left wondering what the big deal was. and ultimately it isn't Roland that slays him at all, but Patrick,

I like what you said there at the end of your comment
when Roland demands entrance to the tower, it was great..

he demands entrance to the tower and goes through the rooms reliving his life he starts to feel the dejavu and the doubt is there at the back of his mind,an inkling of the truth, but does he stop? then he reaches the top and realizes the truth, it's too late to turn back and we find him once again in the desert..do you see the futility?? After centuries of searching, losing everyone and everything he has ever loved….
Roland is destined for more, he is meant to BE more than that and he will repeat his quest untill he is able to learn that.

This was the first blog I've ever been on let alone posted comments about..I posted my ideas as to who should play whom WHEN the movie gets made…if you want to check it out plz go ahead- I take back my Tim Roth for your John Travolta….your rt…he is awesome and wld be perfect!

But what I wanted to say to you directly was in regards to your idea about Rolands destiny and entering the DT. I think roland was totally supposed to kill the cri.mson king. But I think he was never ever supposed to actually enter and climb to the top! I think he was supposed to what it took to straighten out the balance between good and evel- sing out the names of his friends- and then just leave!

I really love so many of your opinions and points of views and have been DYING to find someone ANYONE to have these kinds of discussions with! So please, when you get some time, read my posts and tell me what you think?!
PS- If it was possible, id sink every penny I have into getting this movie made! Just as long as its as true to the books as possible!

Hart horin- john malcovich
The chancelor (4get his name rt now) john leinthgow
Susan- amanda sigfried
Jonas- sam shepard (I think that's his name- gar from mask w cher)
STEVEN deschain (NOT roland)- liam neeson
Gabrielle deschain- helena bonham carter (but I think that may b bc of the comic book drawing of gabrielle- it looks JUST like hbc

Ill b back w more as I read the series again n it all comes back to me!

Ps- ianother thing I think about all the time is all the misery roland goes thru over and over and over- just to keep the tower from falling. And how eddie susanah and jake found their way together again in some parrallel when. Do u really think those 3 gunslingers will find happiness and contentment in a world like new york- WITHOUT their ka-mate? If they really exist I don't think they sleep very well bc they feel rolands suffering all the time. They just have to find their way back to roland ans save him. Call it rolands redemption or something like that- just please! Someone save roland fromhaving to go thru all that pain again!

BUT! Here's some of my casting ideas:
Roland- russell crowe or mel gibson- they both have the look- weathered, unhappy and big blue eyes. (Bombariers eyes!)
Eddie- I kinda like shia lebouf or jake gylenhall…its wld def be a role where they could really show off their talents
Detta/odetta n susahnah- look up kerry washington…she is EXACTLY what I always pictured susanah to look like!
Jake- freddie highmore is the only actor I can think of that has whatit takes to pull it off
Henry- jim caviele is how I always thought of henry!
Regarding young roland, cuthbert and alain….zac effron for young roland, john patrick amedori for cuthbert and haven't found just the right person for alain yet.
Jack mort- that's where hugh laurie wld be great.
Flagg- tim roth
Crimson king- think vincent d'anofrio in the cell…totally crimson king!
Those are just a few. I actually have a notebook with the entirecast listed. I know -its sad! But I totally love love love these books!I so want them made into a movie and for them to be done right!