Comments on: Paul Verhoeven to Expose Jesus in New Book

By: RaTTleR_NL

RaTTleR_NL — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:39:17 +0000

I'm an ahteist and my wife is a christian.
One of the things we agree on is the message behind jesus, Have respect for others.
No matter if it has devine or earthly origins, the message is good.

By: DarkKnightFAN12

DarkKnightFAN12 — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:09:21 +0000

…and you said Christians belittle people. I will pray for you. Good debate.

By: epifone

epifone — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:09:04 +0000

The crazy thing is that you did exactly what I claimed you would do, you tried to take everything out of context to continue to try and reassert your claim that people who are not convinced in the existence of God or any other aspect of the Bible are lost. In regards to how you wish to try and refute scientific fact, it's been regarded as scientific fact since the launch of the Hubble Telescope that the universe is 13.73 billion years old plus or minus 100 million years, and thats NASA fact as you so gracefully laid forth. The only reason it may change ever so slightly is with technological advances, we can see farther and farther into space. Furhtermore, the like I said, the bible has be written and re-written numerous times. The Long Day of Joshua–as you're trying to fixate as fact–has never been proven as fact by NASA. Taken directly from http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-a001.html…a Christian site, they refute the claims of the NASA and it being fact as, "an old urban myth." Read up on it yourself. The Long Day of Joshua in the bible refers to naturally occuring solar phenomina, today, we refer to it as an Equinox…the sun stays in the sky longer, that's it, God does not stop to Earth from spinning or anything religously-toned to make the sun stay higher in the sky. More facts, it's been recorded at the same time thousands of years ago in China the same thing…and they don't believe it God like you do, they never attirbuted it to the Christian God. My point was that the Bible and most religions in general are so dogmatic, they will twist anything and everything to try and prove their own imagined point–they create answers to questions that do not at that time have a specific answer… Case in point, why did the sun stay in the sky longer (the long day of joshua)…it's not because it's a naturally occuring solar exuinox, God did it! Seriously, wtf? And to further my point that you took things out of context, yes, bones have been found, and yes petrified wood has been found–EVERYWHERE, that by no means proves that those animals came from an ark and it does not prove that wook came from an ark. The reason animal bones are typically found in places they are not currently indigenous is because of either plate techtonics–dinosaurs–or an ice age when glaciers carry stones and bones thousands of miles and drop them–or that mountains today were once seabeds–not because of a flood, but because of PLATE TECHTONICS…the same thing that causes earthquakes, volcanoes, and tsunamis…NOT GOD. Again, let me point out that the bible has be re-written countless times, and that things are added time and time again to prove that its God's work and not the work of the natuarally occuring world. So if a flood happens, someone will make a note to put it in the next version of the bible and say that it was God's work, not that there was a flood because the retaining walls in New Orleans broke due to poor construction and placement and no upkeep…yeah, I'm sure that in due time, a bible will come out that says Katrina was God's work–but only if it works in the favor for the religous person writing it to prove a point that God moves in mysterious ways. You bring up Israel becoming an nation…weird, when the Bible was written, it wasn't called Israel–someone re-wrote it hundreds of years later. I choose not to believe because it puts a mask over my eyes, it tells me what I am supposed to think, supposed to believe, supposed to do. I never lost my way, I found my own. You pray for whomever you wish to, I never asked nor implied that you shouldn't, but when I prayed, and prayed, and prayed…for years, before I became "lost" as you put it, Jesus never talked back, we never had a conversation–one that requires words and both parties speaking, a real conversation–he does not know who I am, I have never met him, you have not, no one living today ever has, that's fact. Amen! I am not the kind of person who "doesn't believe"…I am the kind of person who believes in myself, I am the only one who can put food on my table, clothes on my back, a roof over my head, Jesus nor God will do that for you, but if you think they will, go sit in the middle of a field, naked, and see how long it takes for either one to help you–point is the only one who can change anything, do anything, help anything at any time, is yourself. So you keep on keepin' on just as I will, but just keep in mind that there may come a day when your prayers will continue to go unanswered and you may question where all your time has gone, but if it works for you now…well like I said, AMEN to that!

By: DarkKnightFAN12

DarkKnightFAN12 — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:29:11 +0000

The truth of it all is this: I have been a Christian since November 9th, 1989 and I have yet to even scratch the surface. I really don't know much at all. It's awesome. God bless, take care.

By: Laremy

Laremy — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:36:00 +0000

I'm not sure where believing in something bigger than yourself has become synonymous with Christianity. Your religion can be a very useful tool… but then again so can Yoga.

The problem with most religious folk is that they stop questioning anything. The idea that you've got it "figured out" is a poisonous one to anyone seeking higher meaning in this world. Someone told you about the Bible and Jesus… for that you seem very grateful. But there was a period of time where you wouldn't have been told. You've would have "believed" or been slaughtered. All religions have a natural Achilles heel in extremism because they all tell you you've got it all figured out because you've joined the right club. So why not take it a little further? Why not say the other club is "evil?" Why not say that perhaps you deserve a second wife, or more rights than others? After all, those people don't count because they don't have it "figured out."

Religion can be a useful tool if it helps your kindness and discipline. It can also be a handy crutch when the uncertainty of life is a little too much to bear. But never forget that the right to NOT have to accept religion is one of the most powerful things smart people have ever given us.

I choose not to be in your club because you guys have all the answers. Personally, I'd like to find an answer or two myself.

By: DarkKnightFAN12

DarkKnightFAN12 — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:57:14 +0000

Talk about something that has been debunked; evolution. Evolutionary scientists change their mind every day about dates, the age of the earth, age of man, etc…I applaud someone who believes in evolution because it takes way more faith to believe in something another human being came up with than it does to believe there is someone out there greater than us. I love how Christians are labeled as close-minded and yet we are the ones whose voice everyone is trying to silence. The Bible has been proven time and time again. Just a few years ago NASA came to the conclusion that the long day of Joshua was fact (don't get much more scientific than NASA) and pieces of what could be the ark have been found everywhere. Not to mention the fact that animal bones have been found in places where those particular animals never should have been. If you study archeology and compare it to the scripture you will see that everything lines up. Every palace, temple, or building that the Bible says existed, did exist. Also, Israel became an independent nation in 1948, just as the God said they would. Read about the Six-Day War. All God. I could go on but it is honestly not worth it. "Epifone," you have chosen not to believe in God or creation and I have chosen to believe in Him with everything I have. No scientific "fact" that anyone could ever come up with could ever change that. I don't have to see physical evidence of Jesus Christ to know He exists (or existed). I know He lives because He is present in every day of my life; And I am not belittling you nor do I wish you any ill will. I will pray for you, no matter what. There are some of us that have lost our way (i.e. I do not like Joel Osteen's preaching, views, or his lavish lifestyle), but there are still those of us that stick to the old school. I am a sinner, Jesus died for me because He loves me, and now He lives. No hate for non-believers here. But, this is one argument that can never be won because there are two kinds of people in this world: those who believe and those who don't.

By: epifone

epifone — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:44:23 +0000

Well because you asked for examples of science disproving what the bible claimed, here are some…
Let's just get the obvious out of the way, Noah's Ark. True that scienctific evidence points towards a flood…however, which flood? If you are speaking in regards to the flood the bible describes as covering the Earth, then get a grasp on reality. First, the amount of wood it would have taken to construct an ark the held 2 of every animal on Earth simply does not exist in the Middle East. Furthermore, he was a senior citizen, asking a senior citizen to build a mammoth ark, well I would pay to see it. The ship, as the bible states is 300 cubits in length, doing the math, thats 450 feet long, and also 50 cubits wide, thats another 75 feet wide, at a height of 45 feet, and yes, I took it right from the bible. Also, the animals…therein presents an inherent problem with the faith of Christians. If Noah allegedly got two of every animal onto his ship, he would have had to have spent decades scouring the Earth for those animals which did not exist in the Middle East, however, Earth exploration was a twinkle in the eye of the first explorers when the myth of Noah's Ark took place approx. 5000 years ago. So, if Noah was unable to get two of every animal, then masses of animal species would have been wiped from the Earth due to the flood that covered the Earth, completely as the bible said. So there's the problem, if those animals were unable to be secured by Noah who was unable to travel to the vast expanses of Earth to get 2 of every kind, then those animal species would have had to have evolved from others post-flood. Problem is Christians do not believe in Evolution, they only believe in Creation. Presently, Evolution is regarded as scientific fact. Evolution–if you are familiar at all- is a process that takes millions of years, not 5000. And as science has discovered, it has taken 3.5 billion years for bacteria on Earth to evolve eventually into Human beings…if you pay attention in science class, you would have read that. The bible states 2 of every living flesh…so good luck to Noah for setting out on that pre-world exploration to hunt down two of everything. And also, if you do the math, based upon the animals he would have had access to in the mid-east region, with two of every animal lined up loading the boat–if they fit–it would have taken 11 years for them to fully load, non-stop. Also, where were all the other people during the floods? Did they build their own arks? For the several million or so world-wide population on Earth at the end of the Pleistocine era when the flood took place, wouldn't they have perished in the floods? I haven't read the bible in a while, so if you could give me the passage that says god just picked them up and saved them for 40 days, I'd appreciate it. But if he didn't, that would imply incest from Noah and his family on the Ark…sick.
So, you can be skeptical if you want, and you can try and take things the bible says out of context and try and prove some point about how God moves in mysterious ways or whatever cliche you'd like, point is, there will be a point at which everything an individual is told in regards to religion holds as much water as the childhood myths like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny–they simply are myths and nothing more, the more you learn, the research one conducts at any level shines new lights and exposes simple stories people write, afterall, the bible–when you take away every bias–is just a story.

By: knerd

knerd — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:37:41 +0000

One thing I would like to add that might clarify what is going on when we approach sacred religious writings and language: Outside of Lincoln High School, there is a huge bronze likeness of Abe "the Rail Splitter," his shirtsleeves rolled up, his suspenders on and his axe held high, poised to strike. And at his feet is a prostrate slave with manacled hands, the short chain stretched across a rock. It is evident that it is the chain that will soon be cut in two by a single swing of Lincoln's axe.

At the base of the statue are the words "HE WAS BORN TO FREE THE SLAVES."

I submit that the statue, like the New Testament, is TRUE–and profoundly so. But do the historical evidence and the facts support the sculptor's art? Of course not. But just because something is not factually correct then does that make it any less true? Is it suddenly a sham, to be rejected or ridiculed?

We have to decide.

By: knerd

knerd — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:25:17 +0000

DarkKnightFAN12 said: I am a Christian; unabashed and unapologetic. As a Christian I follow the Bible. I can tell you that God's Word specifically teaches that Jesus was indeed simultaneously God and a flesh-n-blood man. If you are not a Christian there is not even any sense in talking about it because you will never understand it until you become a Christian. The Bible says that God chose the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. We are so intelligent and so smart that we don't think anything like that could ever be possible. Our minds our finite, God's is not. That is why faith is the most important thing. I don't understand God, I don't understand why some things are the way they are; but He told me I don't need to understand, just trust Him. So, I do just that. I don't care if every religious leader in the world stands up one day and claims they have confirmed they have found the bones of Christ, I will continue believing that He lives. It was religious leaders who wanted Him put to death. Oh, and the one thing I always find funny is how everyone wants to "disprove" Jesus and his teachings, death, resurrection, even existence. If He was just some magic man and was never really God, then what is the big deal? If He is not who he says He is, than why does everyone get up in arms when His name is mentioned? Didn't mean to preach, but obviously this is a subject that hits close to home for me.

Jesus was a man: that is a statement of FACT.
Jesus was the Son of God, the Messiah: these are statements of FAITH. Unfortuantely, the historian or the scholar has to stick with facts and evidence. Christianity is an historical faith–that is, it is based on real and actual events. I don't think Paul V's book or movie doubts that.

I am really placing the blame on the clergy here. Anyone who has ever taken a seminary class–or for that matter, anyone who has just carefully read the New Testament accounts in parallel–should not feel threatened by historical inquiry. Even as believers, we should be unafraid of following truth wherever it leads.

I guess my point is that the established church has betrayed most of us into a state of biblical illiteracy and ignorance. As Thomas Jefferson once wrote, the "church's meddlings have caused men to reject the whole in disgust."

Thanks be to God that for myself and many, many others, mainline biblical scholarship does not threaten our faith. It deepens it.

By: DarkKnightFAN12

DarkKnightFAN12 — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:23:18 +0000

We are all born with the innate knowledge of a power higher than ourselves. You are right in one sense. How can anyone know except they be told about Jesus? That is where me and my fellow believers come in. I made a choice to believe in Christ. And please, give me every single instance that science has disproved the Bible. More often than not, science has proved the bible right; i.e. the flood, the long day of Joshua, etc…You can disprove anything by making up some "logical" explanation. Through faith I CHOOSE to believe in the illogical. And by the way, I don't belittle anyone who doesn't share my faith, but what is the sense in believing in something if you don't feel you are right.

By: epifone

epifone — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:06:10 +0000

One of the most annoying and belittling things an individual can do is spew their claims of something that one, they truely do not know exists or has ever existed, and two, tries to make others feel stupid for not believing that 'thing' that cannot not be proven to have ever existed. Here's my point. In respone primarily to "darkknightfan12," I too was raised in the Chrisitian faith. Attending church, going to sunday school, doing the christmas plays every year, saying my prayers…blah blah blah. However, their comes a point in which education–the real education based upon fact rather than fiction–incredibly overwhelms what we were once told to believe. Point is that if when we were children, if we were not told to believe in any one religion, we would have no concept of God or Jesus or Allah or whoever. We may question our existance and place, but the vocabulary associated with Jesus and God would never exist. It was invented. It may be true that certain people existed who did certain things, books are written all the time on people like that, Einstein…Shakespeare…freaking Bill Gates. There comes that point when what we learn based upon TRUTH and FACT greatly outweighs the FICTIONAL teachings in sunday school. Proof is what it boils down too, and all any religion has to go off of is a book that someone wrote a long time ago based upon absolutely nothing but stories that carry as much weight as Mother Goose's Book of Fairy Tales. Science has been able to disprove nearly all aspect of the fantasy that is the Bible. Do your homework, and you too will see it's not all that difficult. The bible has been written and re-written many many times over the years by people who want to tailor it to fit their desires, hence King James…. Religion has turned from something invented to provide answers to the questions people long ago could not answer directly, into something now that serves a purpose to collect money…hence that preacher who lives in a mansion and owns a private jet bought from the church donations, Joel. Religion has turned into something that devides people and causes wars–there is not a war being fought today nor ever in recorded history that has not had some foundation based upon religious backings…again, do your homework and its blatantly obvious. I have nothing against people wanting to believe whatever they wish, but when they begin to condescend and belittle others because we're not "true believers"…well you then begin to sound like the freaks that live on compounds, practice polygamy, and marry 13 year old girls. Amen.

By: DarkKnightFAN12

DarkKnightFAN12 — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:45:24 +0000

I am a Christian; unabashed and unapologetic. As a Christian I follow the Bible. I can tell you that God's Word specifically teaches that Jesus was indeed simultaneously God and a flesh-n-blood man. If you are not a Christian there is not even any sense in talking about it because you will never understand it until you become a Christian. The Bible says that God chose the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. We are so intelligent and so smart that we don't think anything like that could ever be possible. Our minds our finite, God's is not. That is why faith is the most important thing. I don't understand God, I don't understand why some things are the way they are; but He told me I don't need to understand, just trust Him. So, I do just that. I don't care if every religious leader in the world stands up one day and claims they have confirmed they have found the bones of Christ, I will continue believing that He lives. It was religious leaders who wanted Him put to death. Oh, and the one thing I always find funny is how everyone wants to "disprove" Jesus and his teachings, death, resurrection, even existence. If He was just some magic man and was never really God, then what is the big deal? If He is not who he says He is, than why does everyone get up in arms when His name is mentioned? Didn't mean to preach, but obviously this is a subject that hits close to home for me.

By: RaTTleR_NL

RaTTleR_NL — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:55:56 +0000

Give me a reminder when it comes out. I could provide a summary of it.
Don't ask me to translate tho whole damn thing tho, with this subject matter it promises to be a biggy.

From what I found out tho it seems he formulates theories about the life of jezus based on what life was like at the time and the backgrounds and lives of the people around him. He doesn't draw conclusions and says thats the truth, he just says what seems likely to him.
Making jezus a person, a human which'll be far more controversial than it seems because as many religious people ask in disgust: "How could the son of god have be a mere man?"

Yeah, as usual my countryman Paul will be noticed. Good on him, why not.